A SOLDIER'S PERSPECTIVE
THE WEB'S LEADING MILITARY BLOG SINCE 2004
(this has been cross posted from my own personal blog and edited for profanity only. heh)
I was offered the opportunity to read a not-quite-final draft of a book that will be available on Amazon.com on April 5, 2011. The Amazon Legion, by Tom Kratman, is in the genre I love the most, military sci fi, so of course I took Laughing Wolf up on the offer to read the book and offer my thoughts. I should explain here that I love sci fi in general because you can reshape society by introducing wars, ecological disasters, or even just simple exploration to the outside. Depending on how far out in years you push the story, society can be either familiar or drastically different. The great thing about military sci fi to me is that grunts are grunts everywhere, even far into the future. It amuses me to read those stories because 80% of the characters I read about match someone I knew or met or currently know in real life. Soldiers are the same. They complain about food, dish about women, love their brothers-in-arms, and fight to the death for their country. Pretty basic stuff.
Alright. So The Amazon Legion. What is the premise and how does it hold up to scrutiny?
I have to be very careful to not give away a lot of the story line, but imagine a future nation, small, locked into war, and it has a somewhat Latin American feel. What are the traditional roles of women and gays in those types of societies? If you are bogged down in war, how do you man your Army? Can you successfully fight without using all available manpower resources? Can you use those demographics (women and gays) to fill out your fighting (and by “fighting,” I mean infantry) force and how do you do it without major disruption to the rest of the units who, for the most part, have decidedly firm and homophobic or women-are-weak attitudes?
Tom Kratman takes on these ideas, focusing on women, in The Amazon Legion. The book is crafted well in the sense that he absolutely understands how units are built, staffed, trained, and how leaders are made and selected. The majority of the book attends to those ideas. He really covers all objections and issues that can arise from having an all female infantry unit even down to what to do with children of single mothers or parents where both serve in the military. I truly loved the surprising detail by which he addressed everything.
Mr. Kratman takes the time to pick apart some of the modern female integration countries. The United States has females fully into units but they are limited by MOS. Is that really female integration? How does that affect how men view women in their units? How does that affect readiness and morale? Mr. Kratman leaves no stone unturned in this novel. The sacred cows of feminism and gay rights are confronted and either cut down or supported through the story of how this female infantry unit is formed.
What are my objections to the book? Only a few things. First off, myself being a super touchy-feely woman, there is one scene where one of the main characters, a Sergeant, she “chucks” another woman under the chin as they head out to war. It’s a tiny detail. But I am a woman who has seen her friends naked (they have also seen me as bare as the day I was born) and with whom I have shared some of the most intimate details of my life, but I would never, EVER touch another woman’s face. I would hug, put an arm around her shoulder, even hold her hand, but never touch her face like that. Even going back and reading that scene as I was writing this, it struck me wrong. If it were someone I knew well and she made a sassy complaint, I’d tap her lightly in the shoulder with a fist, not chuck her under the chin like a child. Maybe it can be written off to the society these women are in or from a superior to her troop, but it struck me wrong. Strange that such a thing sticks with me.
Ok, so this won’t be too revealing so I hope Mr. Kratman doesn’t mind that I address this, but the book starts with battle and then goes backwards to how these women were formed as a unit. The problem is that so much is devoted to the technicals and story plot of their build up and training that the overall story of why there are out there at the tip of the spear in the beginning gets totally lost. It was frustrating to get 2/3 through the book and we still haven’t returned to the true fighting. The epic battles are what drive these books. The tactics and weaponry and action. Even my father mentioned that it was a fine book and he agreed with the breakdown of how everything would fit together, but that the story got lost in there somehow. The author spends so much time tearing apart arguments and putting together cohesive alternatives that the entertainment is pushed aside a little. The major players….nations and planets…..they are hard to keep track of because of how they are not woven in well enough to the political statement of women and gays in the military.
All that being said, I loved the book. I loved the story and the women and how tough they were at times and how soft and tender they were at other moments. As a pretty hardcore woman, I can understand doing what needs to be done, hating it, and still finding that feminine inner self. We girls handle adversity differently than men do. We absolutely do. And he takes that into account but doesn’t overplay that hand. The argument for female infantry was made well and overall, it was a great tale.
So I was given this opportunity to read the book and review it for a reason. We have some pretty intelligent readers and commenters here on ASP. So this is an attempt to spark some debate. Can you have a fully female infantry unit? How would you form it? What objections or problems do you foresee for something like that? What sort of training do you think would be necessary? Do you think it would be successful? Share with us your thoughts. Mr. Kratman may even show up here to correct some of my misperceptions or talk about your concerns, so speak up.
(38) Readers Comments
Leave a Reply
![[UPDATE] The “Face” of Military Dating Scams – The Wall of Shame](http://militarygear.com/asp/wp-content/themes/LondonLive/thumb.php?src=http://militarygear.com/asp/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/2.jpg&w=53&h=41&zc=1&q=100)
Anatomy of a Military Dating Scam
to Anonn, thank you. i thought so. i just want a clear picture of his
Military Dating Scams (More Nigerian Scammers)
New Scam to be aware of……….I am 2LT. Anderson Darrell Clinton , an off
Anatomy of a Military Dating Scam
New Scam to be aware of……….I am 2LT. Anderson Darrell Clinton , an off
[UPDATE] The "Face" of Military Dating Scams - The Wall of Shame
New Scam to be aware of……….I am 2LT. Anderson Darrell Clinton , an off
Pingback: Tweets that mention The Amazon Legion–A Book Review | A Soldier's Perspective -- Topsy.com
Marc
As a member of an army that has had women in the army, and yes in combat trades for over 15 years I have no problem with them, or the lesbian/gay croud either, who are also in our army.
Mabe it’s the mentality or something but I realy don’t care that your a woman, gay/transexual/bigoted/muslim As long as you do your job, and don’t bother me with it I will work with anyone.
The name of my army having been omited for good reason, but rest asured that it is a western power and a founding member of NATO. We make it work, and I still don’t understand why you can’t.
LL
I think part of the reason we can’t make it work is because we haven’t done it. It took years after integrating African-Americans into the military for them to be accepted fully. It has taken this current war-time footing to accept (for the most part) women fighting alongside men. I don’t know how many years you have had a fully integrated military with gays and transgender and women all fighting in the combat arms branches, but it takes a while for an institution to adjust. There will always be those people who are against it and it takes a while for them to get to retirement age and move on. As the younger generations move into power positions, it will be easier to accept change of that nature, I suspect.
Tom Kratman
Marc:
I think I know what army you’re from, eh? Possibly you can because you, with under a 3rd of a percent of your population under arms, can be comparatively very selective while we, with three times more manpower under arms, proportionally, can’t. Or maybe you’re fooling yourselves about how successful you’ve been, or what price you pay for it.
I did a fair amount of research when I first wrote this (back in 92, if anyone’s curious; the book, originally entitled The Amazon’s Right Breast, started as non-fiction). This included both the Canadian and Israeli experience. What I found was that there was a lot less than met the eye. Were women in the CF’s Armoured Corps, for example? Yes, but not in tanks because the weights were insupportable. Artillery? Yes, but in the FDCs, not on the gun line, because the weights were insupportable. Infantry? At that time there was one female in PPCLI, Heather Erxleben. Never could get ahold of her, but I did manage to track down someone who had been in the same squad. “Good troop,” said he, “good SAW gunner.” Which was fine, except that of 101 women who tried, 98 failed outright, 3 were recycled, and only one of those three made it. In short, Canada produced a light machine gunner at the cost of producing a fighter pilot.
There were more in the militia. I spoke at length with a girl in The BLack Watch of Canada (a Francophone regiment, oddly enough) and asked about that. “It’s a lot easier,” she said.
The Israeli story wasn’t a lot different.
I was, in fact, unable to find a single credible instance of large scale gender integration in the combat arms that worked. An occassional exceptional individual? Sure, but rare exceptions don’t make a rule. Guerillas…some, but the best examples – a couple of Viet Cong companies – were segregated and under discipline western women would be unlikely to tolerate. An instance where, say, a gender mixed tank crew performed splendidly? One, at least, but in that instance they were two married couples, hence courtship, romance, and sex were not issues. This, by the way, was also highly analagous to ancient Thebes’ gay Sacred Band.
There were a few disasters (the Israeli experience, for example, in their War of Independence, was wretched and lasted under three weeks). I did find some successes, however, where women were segregated, as with those VC companies mentioned.
In any case, sheer physical strength and endurance are not, to me, the core of the problem. That core is romance-courtship-dating-love-lust-sex with the favoritism and de facto prostitution that arises from them. And it’s hardwired; there’s nothing to be done about it. Eros doesn’t just mock Mars; Eros makes Mars his b*tch.
And putting people together is unlikely to change any of that because it isn’t just learned behavior; it’s as hard wired in our brains as anything, and probably moreso.
Nor does the sexual polarity of the prospective partner necessarily change anything. Lemme tell ya a story; true story as it happens. Once, in law school, I had a conversation with a helluva nice gay guy named Steve. Went like this:
Steve: What makes you think that gays are attracted to straights?
Me, with a sly smile: Well, other than having a battalion commander once who was quite probably in love with me…tell me, Steve, in matters romantic and sexual are gays better than straights, worse, or just remarkably human?
Steve, sensing the trap but not sure of its nature: I’d have to say we’re just remarkably human.
Me, smiling more broadly now: Remarkably human, eh? (to the audience) Who here wants to f**k Monoka (a very lovely and sweet lesbian girl)?
The audience: MemememeIdoIdowheredoIsignup?!!!
Me, to Steve: The People rest.
karina
I appreciate you being very honest about the difficulty of men and women working together. Most people are not that honest. It is even in the civilian world, the same.
It is nature for men to think to be with woman and visa versa.
I think females serving in combat, would really only work, if it were a female only unit. I think it is about male/female hormones that drive people. I must admit, I like my hormones. I like the men with their hormones. It is just a tempting situation when working together.
I hope to read your book when it comes out.
Tom Kratman
Well, I hope you like it when you read it.
Tom Kratman
LL:
Good review, thanks.
The chin chucking…mmmm…that wasn’t entirely thoughtless on my part. Remember Marta’s sexual polarity. I always kind of pictured her wanting to seduce Maria, unconsciously, and consciously _not_ wanting to. At the same time, I tried to portray her as (ultra) female in appearance but butch in manner. I thought the chuck fit.
You know, I very deliberately used Heinlein’s Starship Troopers as a structural model, then roughly doubled the amount of actual battle. Was it enough? No, probably not. But then I’m much more about educating than entertaining.
LL
I view touching another woman’s face as extremely intimate so I can see your point but in the ideal of being professional, is that intimacy appropriate at that moment? Or should professionalism win out? And I wonder what it says about me that a small gesture such as touching another woman’s face is more taboo than kissing my grown sisters on the mouth, even in public. haha
Ori Pomerantz
in the ideal of being professional, is that intimacy appropriate at that moment?
I think that’s the whole point, that it is inappropriate but would still happen because of the difficulty people have controlling their sexual urges when they are stressed.
LL
I do get that point, but it is more mother to child to me. So it is not so much sexual as motherly, and still too intimate from superior to troop, but maybe not and most definitely unprofessional. We all have our quirks and that was one point that glared “INAPPROPRIATE TOUCHING” to me. haha
One thing that I found extremely interesting about the book and the overall statement about mixing sexuality in close quarters (genders in hetero and straight/gay) is that sex always gets in the way. Mr. Kratman found a very innovative way around that issue.
LL
By the way, Starship Troopers is probably one of my all time favorite books (Ender’s Game is the other, and another social commentary wrapped in a story) and I trot out the soldier–>citizen–>voter requirement as needed in comments. When I view your book in light of a philosophical argument as Heinlein did with Starship Troopers, now I understand the brevity of battle (and also as you explained to me in email that this is a series of which this particular novel is a middle one, not a starting story).
Tom Kratman
Well…since you’re going to read the series, I think you’ll enjoy the epigraphs in The Lotus Eaters. See, they’re all taken from that well known Balboan school text, Historia y Filosophia Moral, by Warrant Officer (PhD) Jorge Mendoza and his wife Marqueli Mendoza
karina
I have not served in the military, so I can’t speak from that perspective. However, I did try to learn about this that they call “Amazons”. I think it is fiction, from what I read.
I think, that if a country was very occupied with war and the fighting men already at war, I could see units of Amazons being formed, for protection of the country or for additional fighting people.
I think, there would be females that could do the job of fighting. Already, I believe there are females in the militias, according to a Time magazine article.
I think, in this day and age, females are already are pretty tough, and could make the transition to fighting in a military. I hope we never have to, but I believe we could if need be.
LL
karina, first off, I’m really, REALLY glad we have moved beyond the bow & arrow cuz I’d never cut a hooter off. LOL But how large of a percentage of the American female population do you think would actually take up arms and fight to the death for our country? How many mothers would walk away from their children knowing that they could/would die? How many uber-feminists do you think would shoot or stab to death another person to fight off an invasion?
I don’t have a lot of confidence there.
karina
You are right, I have not thought about that. I guess, I was speaking from my perspective. My dad was in the military and I have been around military men all my life, so the transition to doing military things would not be that big a leap for me. But, you right, for the average female, that might be a stretch.
I think of the gang hommie girls, they are tough enough, but would they be loyal to a country? Feminists, no they would not fight for the US.
I have written to ladies in the military. They have families and it is tough on them. I don’t know if they would be willing to do combat. Good question.
LL
And I try to frame it to myself in terms of how many women are victims of violent crimes every day? Women will be beaten, raped, kidnapped, and they will have their children suffer the same fate at times, but they will not take up arms to defend themselves or their children. So overall, I think the total population like you and myself, we are a very small percentage.
I suspect that the western and northwestern states have a larger number of women willing to step up that way. Montana, Wyoming, Idaho….they are born and bred to be tough, but then again, I could be stereotyping the frontier-woman to modern woman. Who knows?
karina
As far as self defense, there is running into laws. A boyfriend was abusive to me, I just left. I would not think to do anything to him, I would not get myself in trouble with the law.
I spent some time in women’s shelters. It is interesting the whole abuse thing, it is more a relationship thing. Women get into those kind of relationships and there is love and what else can they do, as far as older women.
I think, we are just not raised to carry guns and defend ourselves, and even if we did, then there is the law. If a woman ever shot an attacker, then there would be the whole dealing with the law thing. I just rely on the Lord to protect me. I do, that has gotten me through a number of times when traveling solo.
I think that females could be trained to do combat though. I really do believe that. I think the militias are a good example. I don’t know that much about militias, but I think the necessity is the fuel for the females arming themselves.
LL
So training…do you think women should be trained EXACTLY like men? Do you think weaker upper body strength should be forgiven (like it currently is in our configuration of the military where they have to do fewer push ups, pull ups, etc)? Can a man count on a woman to pick up The Pig and follow him into battle? Is she an equal if she cannot do so?
Tom Kratman
You know, I thought about that legendary mastectomy a lot. Since Dolly Parton could draw a bow, I am inclined to take it as a moral point, not a physical one. That point? That to be combatants women must give up some substantial portion of what we think of as their femininity. Not all of it, no…but quite a bit.
karina
I did a few minutes of research on Amazons in the past. The research I saw said that Amazons were probably fictitious. Did you find that they weren’t?
I figure that Amazons are a male fantasy. Which is kinda cool.
I have done some archery. I do not see how breasts would affect handling a bow. Unless, it was a very serious bow. I think you are right, maybe that part of the legend is about balancing femininity.
I think that a female can be femine and able to handle arms. My dad taught me to shoot a rifle when I was a little girl, so I feel confident with guns. I don’t feel like I have to give up my feminity to enjoy guns, or work in a professional office setting.
Your book really brought up some interesting things. I look forward to reading it.
Tom Kratman
If I had to lay odds, I’d say they were probably fictitious. And I am completely unimpressed with legends about them having to kill an enemy before marriage; that’s a way to guarantee the destruction of your society through loss of women, the bottleneck in the production of the next generation’s spear fodder.
That said, however, there is one thing I know of going for the idea. This was that horses would have been bred strong enough in the back to carry a 100 pound women some centuries before we had horses strong enough to carry a 200 pound man. So it’s just within the realm of the possible that they existed in some form and were horse archers before men could be.
karina
That is interesting about the horse archers. I could see that.
karina
I think that females should be in separate units for combat. I only see females doing combat in the case of necessity, say if males aren’t available. Trained differently. I don’t think it takes too much upper body strength to pull a trigger. It might take some strenth to handle an automatic weapon, like an AK. I don’t know.
But I think necessity is the thing that would cause women to do combat, but only in necessity. I don’t think it would be wise to try to form Amazons right now for America. We have plenty of males available for combat. But if we ever, God forbid, have multiple wars, then women might have to get involved.
I think women in combat, might be similiar to training all the coach potato male civilians to defend our country. Women motivated might do better than males not motivated.
karina
As far a women being equal, you are talking to a female that has very different opinions than most females. Someone accused me of setting women back 50 years. Do you really want me to answer this question?
I don’t think females are equal. I believe we are different. I believe it is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are good, but they are not the same.
I think a lot of men excel in physical strength and intellectual things. I think women excel nurturing and being intuitive.
That does not mean women can’t be intellectual, we are. It does not mean we can’t do combat. I just do not see us doing combat along side men, unless it was absolutely necessary.
Like, I said, I have never been in the military, but I wanted to. I think I would be distracting, because that is how I am normally. I tone it down for office work. I would probably have myself a dating extravaganza in the military.
I don’t know how you do it, except focusing on being professional.
LL
karina, I think you would really enjoy this book! Mr. Kratman here takes all of these things and addresses them through training and creating a female unit that is sufficiently staffed to handle it all. It sort of helps to know how units are structured to appreciate the full beauty of it, but even non-military people can get the thought and care and THINKING that went into it. Oh, and he will be appearing on the Youserved Podcast tonight (Tuesday) to talk about some of this if you’d like to join us.
And yes, when you say you’d have a dating extravaganza in the military, there are a lot of women who do (and it can cause some serious problems). I was actually an Army brat and dated soldiers almost exclusively. I now have a wicked fetish for tall, super-short-haired, clean cut manly men. hahaha
karina
How do I get to the Youserved podcast? I will get the book, I think the thought of Amazons is fascinating. Especially, in this day when 50% of women parenting, are parenting solo.
The only thing is, is getting women to put aside competitiveness for the sake of thriving. That is a challenge for women, I think. Somehow men handle competitiveness differently, and are able to work together and bond like brothers. I think it is cool how men can get along with eachother.
I too, have a thing for military men. I like that they are strong, brave and very manly.
LL
Sorry, I tried to email you where to go. I wasn’t sure how Cat5, the owners of this site, felt about sending you along elsewhere, but then I saw it just now linked in the sidebar. You can download the podcast at blogtalkradio.com/youserved.
And Tom told me to tell you that he is a manly man, but he has soft, girly hands. hahaha
Tom Kratman
Yup. Nasty, dainty, baby-girl’s-butt-levels-of-soft disgusting hands. Bane of my military existence, actually.
karina
Sir, I bet you are a manly man. The disgusting hands sound very interesting.
Tom Kratman
True fact, I’ve dug my share of fighting positions, crawled over everything one might expect, did the horizontal ladder back when it was on the PT test. The things never toughened; they just ripped open and bled…and then healed just as soft as they were when I was born.
I had a girlfriend in Panama, before I met my wife, and this girl would spend hours just stroking my palms. A few weeks ago, at church, I ended up holding the hand of a (pretty damned attractive actually) blond woman during the Lord’s Prayer. My hands were six times softer than hers. Ya wanna talk about feeling gay…
karina
What kind of lotion do you use for your hands? Are guy soaps and potions better than girl soaps and potions? That is my question.
I am also curious, do men tell their wives that you thought the blond was attractive? How do men do that? Do you pretend you did not notice? Does it depend on the woman (wife)?
I have not experienced being a wife, but the thought of being a wife is daunting.
karina
LL, Thanks for thinking of me. I googled the site. I read a show from the past. I will check the site again.
Tom Kratman
I can’t speak for anyone else, but, yes, I told the wife about it. Didn’t bother her in the slightest. If she’s confident of anything, she’s confident that there are very few women quite as good looking as she is. Really.
If there was a lotion that toughened them up, I’d have used it to spare myself a lot of blood and pain. No, the little SOBs are just naturally soft.
karina
About the hand situation. I am thinking you need to start washing dishes, that would toughen them up.
Even just washing hands a lot is not good for the hands, I think.
I am pondering this, so you told your wife that you held hands with an attractive blond during praying. You are a brave man.
I am thinking not saying anything about it, would be the kindest thing. That would say you did not even notice her attractiveness. But I don’t know, you know more about marriage than I do.
May I suggest a book on marriage next, I would buy that book as well.
Tom Kratman
Lest you misunderstand, this was not personal flirtation. _Everybody_ in the local Catholic Church does it. (I find it quite uncomfortable, really; we didn’t do that in church when I was a boy in Boston.)
karina
I know you were not flirting with her. I was just thinking as a girl. No matter how beautiful a female is, most females are competitive. Your wife might not be competitive, which is cool.
LL
Tom, I bet you hate when the chubby sweaty guy squeezes in next to you on the pew!!
Tom Kratman
Well…I try to arrive late so I can have a cute girl on one side or the other, that, or nobody, yes.